June 14, 1995 (Hollywood, United States) - Prime Time
Live interview with Diane Sawyer and Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley—Jackson on the old M.G.M. soundstage at the Sony Pictures film studio in Hollywood. It was broadcast live on ABC in the United States and on television stations around the world.
Interview prelude
Diane Sawyer: Don’t doubt it. Despite all the speculation and the glitz, Michael Jackson is a real subject. In this town, ask anyone—ask the people at the music company Sony—and they’ll tell you that his next album and his videos alone could bring him close to a billion dollars worldwide. So it’s not hard to see why the wave of accusations from two years ago was recorded here as the last earthquake. What everyone wants to know is: is he really on his way back?
It seems like, at this hour, the old M.G.M. soundstage at the Sony Pictures film studio—where all those dreams are brought to film—might be the right place to begin. Because whatever you think about Michael Jackson, you can’t ignore what he’s achieved: a little boy with all the dreams that seem to ripple through his voice.
This is a “Once Upon a Time” story that all of us know, in our hearts.
From this little house in Gary, Indiana—where, out of nine children of a garbage worker, came a remarkable talent that shook “Motown.” It’s been said that Michael Jackson turns and guides his family within the boundaries reserved for stars.
But we’ve heard the other side of the story, too. The brothers claimed their father treated them brutally and beat them. This is the same man Michael said made him feel nauseous with fear.
Diane Sawyer: But onstage, the little boy had an invincible feeling and used the voice that would captivate people for the next 25 years. Even then, when he was a singer, he basically changed. We sat down a week and a half ago and talked about music, and we watched the 1970 show «The Ed Sullivan Show».
He remembered exactly what he was thinking about back then.
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(Recorded in a sound recording studio)
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” Michael: It was like everybody in the world was watching me. My dad always told me, ”Don’t mess up,” and you know, I felt like I knew everything, and if something went wrong, I felt like I could cover it up.
Diane Sawyer: But as he grew up, he lost something you can’t put a price on. He said it was a great sadness—that people stared at him while clearly wishing he were still that little, funny boy. Back then, his mother worried he would withdraw.
” Katherine Jackson: Michael is so quiet now. When he was younger, he wasn’t this quiet. I don’t know... I think being onstage did something to him. “
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(Interview with Sylvia Chase, late 1970s)
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” Michael: Going here and there every day, you know, people and crazy talk... I feel like a stranger.
Silvia Chase: Shy?
Michael: Yes “
Diane Sawyer: In 1979, he told Sylvia Chase that people wouldn’t let him just be natural.
” Michael: They wouldn’t... well, they wouldn’t talk to me like their neighbor would. “
Diane Sawyer: But Jackson used a kind of isolation to strengthen his feelings about things that were new.
In 1983, on the 25th anniversary of «Motown», another Michael Jackson emerged. Something he created himself—from music to muscles to magic. It was a victory... but he still sees what he lost.
” Michael: I wanted to do five turns and then stand on my left thumb and just stay there. You know, and I didn’t do it. But they didn’t know that. “
Diane Sawyer: It’s a double achievement: a perfectionist trying to give the audience more. A man who changes his voice and behavior to an infinite degree to match the people around him. It makes you wonder whether all of this is part of his plan—or whether it’s like a prison for him. Because even today, Jackson captures people’s minds with every word, every line, every sound.
What you hear now isn’t the sound of an electronic drum machine. It’s a digitally wired human being who can produce 48 different songs of his own.
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A recorded tape from Michael’s soundbox is playing, imitating the sounds of various musical instruments
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” Michael: You know what I mean? I take these sounds and use them as the foundation of the track. And I make all the sounds that are close to that. You know what I’m saying? “
Diane Sawyer: So whatever the future holds, music will always be at the core of this man—someone who says he’ll soon return to a place where he feels more comfortable than anywhere else.
Diane Sawyer: Are you really anxious to get back onstage?
Michael: I miss the fans. It’s an opportunity for me to... you know, to see them and feel their presence. When we have a concert and a hundred thousand people are out there. You see a sea of people singing. Everyone is in sync, while they’re holding up candles and you’re saying
”Woooh”. You know, it really makes your heart happy—and it’s the feeling that everything is going to be okay.
Diane Sawyer: But as we said, two years ago this shy man faced serious accusations of abusing a young boy. As the headlines grew louder, many people wanted to know whether what had seemed merely strange was actually something sinister and vile. And the boys who were always around him—were they trapped by a seducer? The question had been hanging for a long time: was Michael Jackson guilty? Or was he forced to endure two years of unprecedented injustice?
A warning for mothers and fathers—this subject is for adults.
The accusations were...
” A 12-year-old boy said that during a period of 4 months, while repeatedly sleeping alone in Michael Jackson’s bedroom, there were kisses, caresses, and sexual contact. The boy said he objected, but Jackson cried and said it wasn’t dangerous, and that other boys had done it with him. “
The accusations were......... But there were problems in pursuing the case. The boy had insisted on telling these things while his own father was also seeking custody of the children and had spoken with Jackson’s team about money—” the amount of 20 million dollars “ ....... according to Jackson’s team.
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(A recorded tape of the accusing father talking to someone who knew him)
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Accusing father: Well, if I get this done, I’ll get a big opportunity. There’s no way I can lose.
Diane Sawyer: But whatever the revealed circumstances of credible sources were, they believed the boy’s story. And the search for Michael Jackson began—and within days it reached everyone’s ears.
Reporter 1: Tonight’s program «Police investigation of allegations against Michael Jackson of sexual abuse of a young boy...»
Reporter 2: «Pop music star Michael Jackson is under investigation for the alleged abuse of children...»
Diane Sawyer: The so-called friends who worked for Jackson were looking for a story, claiming they knew about these events too... and that was the trash they fed to the newspapers.
And even when some of Jackson’s young friends tried to defend him, they raised other troublesome questions.
It’s an 11-year-old boy (Brett Barnes) talking to a television interviewer.
” Interviewer: When you slept in Jackson’s house at night, and you were in a room or in a bedroom together, did anything seem strange to you at all?
Brett Barnes: No, because I slept on one side of the bed and he slept on the other side of the bed—that was it. “
Diane Sawyer: After months at the top of the news, the tour took place, and then—according to reports—after treatment for his addiction to tranquilizer pills, Jackson returned to the United States and agreed to a series of police photo sessions. News sources say these photos were meant to see whether the photos matched the accuser’s descriptions of specific parts of his body that the news media called «private parts.»
On December 22, 1993, Jackson appeared in public.
Michael: Don’t treat me like I’m a criminal, because I’m innocent. I’ve been forced to submit to an inhuman and insulting examination by the Santa Barbara courthouse and the Los Angeles Police Department earlier this week. They gave me a written order for the examination, which allowed them to examine my body—including my genitalia, buttocks, lower body, thighs, and any part they wanted—and take photographs of it.
Diane Sawyer: A month later, on January 25, 1994, Michael Jackson settled his young accuser’s lawsuit... for how much? According to reports, about 15 to 20 million dollars. After the settlement, the boy refused to testify about this criminal matter.
So after 13 months at the top of the news, the case investigator said, ”The matter is over.“
Jill Gurstey: We have to refuse to pursue legal action against Mr. Jackson.
Diane Sawyer: They didn’t have any other children to bring to court. And none of the employees who claimed they had seen questionable things had a story that could be confirmed by a child. To this day, some investigators remain convinced that «the power of beauty and love to stir emotions» and «money» are attractive enough to produce loyalty and silence. Meanwhile, Jackson’s team insists the matter is over because nothing at all happened.
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When we come back, Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley will have the chance to talk.
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Diane Sawyer: Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley, welcome to Prime Time.
Michael: Thank you.
Diane Sawyer: I’m glad you’re here. When I look at you both, it seems to me that I should start. How did this marriage happen? How did it begin? Let me guess—this didn’t happen around some little bay, or a hot dog stand, or something like that. When did it start? When were the dates set?
Michael: Well, the first time... she was seven and I was seventeen. In Las Vegas... she had always been in the habit of coming by and watching my shows. We had a family show, and she was used to coming by as a little girl. And she would sit right across from me. She would usually come with a lot of security and...
Diane Sawyer: Were you in contact with her?
Michael: Of course, of course. She would come backstage... and then me, you know... I’d say hello, talk, and then she’d come again. And I thought she was kind and sweet, and I wished... I always wished I could see her again.
Diane Sawyer: And when was the first time you talked about marriage?
Lisa Marie: We weren’t in contact with each other after that.
Michael: No, we weren’t in contact.
Lisa Marie: She, she... go ahead, you wanted to say, go ahead.
Michael: No, you can say it. You have a good memory.
Lisa Marie: Well, you said you were going to tell it.
Diane Sawyer: This is from our first argument, right here at this hour. Who proposed? I want to say... how did the discussion about marriage happen?
Michael: Well, well... at first, it was what happened. When she was 18, I was in the habit of telling my lawyer «John Branca» to say, ”Do you know Lisa Marie Presley?“ And he would say, ”Well, I’m her mother’s representative.“ I’d say, ”Well, can you call her? Because I think she’s really cute and attractive.“ And every time he’d laugh and say, ”I’ll do my best.“ Then he’d come back and I’d tell him, ”Okay, did you understand?“ And he’d say, ”No, nothing.“ And I always reminded him about it. Then I noticed a picture on the cover of a magazine—her wedding photo—which really broke me up. Because I felt she had to be the one. I really felt that.
Diane Sawyer: When was the first time you talked about marriage?
Michael: I said
Lisa Marie: She said
Diane Sawyer: Who? Where?
Michael: Who? Where?
Lisa Marie: On the phone.
Michael: Oh. Yes, yes... on the phone.
Lisa Marie: She first asked me, ”We’ve been dating for 4 months now, right? 4 months...“
Michael: I don’t remember.
Lisa Marie: Anyway... we spent a lot of time together. I don’t know how this didn’t get out to the press. Because we didn’t hide it. In Las Vegas... we were...
Michael and Lisa Marie: We were together everywhere.
Lisa Marie: Everywhere.
Michael: We went to bookstores.
Lisa Marie: We went to bookstores. We didn’t hide it.
Diane Sawyer: And you immediately said yes?
Lisa Marie: At that time, I had been divorced for 4 months. She said, ”If I asked you to marry me, what would you do?“ And I said
”Yes, I would do that.“
Michael: A strong yes... you were really eager... (laughs)
Diane Sawyer: I have to ask, because I can only imagine that a number of lawyers were involved in the arrangements for the marriage agreement. Is there an agreement?
Michael: Well, we worked on things and signed certain documents, but... of course it’s very confidential.
Lisa Marie: We agreed. We made preliminary arrangements.
Diane Sawyer: As you know, this marriage was met with reactions all over the world. And I know you both feel it strongly.
Reactions ranging from surprise, shock, and excitement to suspicion and doubt... that this marriage was somehow too easy, without effort or trouble. Lisa, did you ask Michael about his accusations? Did the two of you think about how this marriage would affect the accusations?
Lisa Marie: Of course, no. He called me... I was in contact with him throughout every stage of these accusations. When he disappeared, I was talking to him. I actually had to go to «Santiago» and «Puerto Rico»—which he left and disappeared from. And I got a phone call saying Michael didn’t intend to go there. And I was actually part of all the events that happened to him—talking to him by phone and...
Diane Sawyer: Did you ask him, ”Are these accusations true?“
Lisa Marie: No, I didn’t ask.
Diane Sawyer: I have a minute here—time to clarify something... and I want to return to the marriage topic.
Lisa Marie: I can... sorry... he, he... he kept talking about it. So I didn’t really have to ask, ”Are these accusations true or not?“ He was very angry on the phone, and you know...
Diane: Always?
Lisa Marie: It was constant. Yes.
Diane Sawyer: Okay, Michael—because I know you’ve wanted to express similar feelings for a long time. I want to ask a few things about the accusations. But first I want to make it clear to the viewers that nothing has been decided in advance. You’ve told me you’re not afraid of any question. So I wanted everyone to know all of this before we started.
I think I want to begin with the confidence that the situation has been clarified.
You said you’ve never hurt a child. I want to be as direct as possible. Have you ever touched or caressed this boy the way he said, or had sexual contact with this child or other children?
Michael: Never. I could never hurt a child or anyone else. It’s not in my heart. It’s not who I am. It’s not something I do. I don’t even have that desire.
Diane Sawyer: Do you think someone who does that should do what?
Michael: Someone who does that? What should they do? I think they need help in some way.
Diane Sawyer: What about the police photos? How did this boy have enough information about that kind of things?
Michael: Police photos?
Diane Sawyer: Police photos.
Michael: The photos they took of me?
Diane Sawyer: Yes.
Michael: There was nothing that could connect me to the accusations.
Lisa Marie: There was nothing they could tie to Michael.
Michael: That’s why I’m sitting here today talking to you. A little information that could link me to the matter wasn’t found.
Diane Sawyer: Okay, when we heard about the accusations...
Michael: There was nothing.
Diane Sawyer: There weren’t any marks on your skin?
Michael: No marks.
Diane Sawyer: None?
Michael: No.
Diane Sawyer: So why did you settle...?
Michael: So why am I still here?
Lisa Marie: You don’t intend to ask me anything about them, do you? (laughs) Sorry... marks on his skin.
Diane Sawyer: Are you volunteering?
Lisa Marie: No, it’s just that... despite how big it got, once it was finally determined that there was nothing related to this, very little was printed about it.
Michael: Well, because there was nothing at all to write about.
Diane Sawyer: So why did you settle the accusations?
Michael: It’s all lies!
Diane Sawyer: Why did you settle? It looks like you paid a lot of money and...
Michael: That’s mostly what the public says. I talked to my lawyer and said, ”Can you guarantee me that justice will prevail?“ And they said, ”Michael, we can’t guarantee you that the judge or the jury will do the right thing.“ And that made me angry. I felt humiliated.
Diane Sawyer: How much money...
Michael: I was completely humiliated. So I said, ”I have to do something to get out of this nightmare.“ All these lies and all the people coming around to get money and all the shows the tabloids were putting on... It’s all lies, lies, lies, lies... So what did I do? I got together with my advisors and they advised me. We agreed on a decision and the issue was resolved. This matter could have gone on for 7 years.
Diane Sawyer: How much money...
Michael: We said, let’s put this behind us. Let’s end this whole thing.
Diane Sawyer: Can you tell me how much?
Michael: It’s not what the tabloids printed. It’s not that weird, crazy money. What I mean is that the contract terms are very confidential.
Diane Sawyer: I want to ask...
Lisa Marie: He’s been barred from discussing the terms.
Diane Sawyer: The terms set?
Lisa Marie: The terms set.
Diane Sawyer: The contract terms set?
Lisa Marie: The amount set.
Michael: The things they say about me aren’t fair—the things they forced me to go through. Because there wasn’t even a shred of information
to prove I did that. And anyway... they turned my room upside down, searched all my books, all my video tapes. All my private things... and they found nothing... nothing that could prove Michael Jackson did that... nothing.
Diane Sawyer: Let me ask you a few questions.
Michael: Nothing, nothing, nothing...
Diane Sawyer: Nothing. We don’t have anything. As you may know or not, we called everyone we could. We checked everything we could. We tried to figure out whether the things we’d heard before were actually true... I want to ask you about two things. About these news stories we keep reading that they found photos of boys in your home.
Michael: No, photos of boys—photos of children, little girls... everything.
Diane Sawyer: That they found photos... books with photos of naked boys.
Michael: No.
Diane Sawyer: They didn’t find them?
Michael: No. I don’t know about those things... unless it’s things people sent me that I didn’t open. People send me things... People know about my love for children. After all, from all over the world, people send me books—from South America, Germany, Italy, Sweden, me...
Diane Sawyer: People say that they found things like that... they say there’s evidence. Let them come forward and let them publish these stories, okay?
Michael: Yes, because you can’t believe the number of mail letters I receive. If I told my fans that I love Charlie Chaplin, then my surroundings would be full of things related to Charlie Chaplin.
Diane Sawyer: About...
Michael: If I say I love children (which I do), then I’ll be surrounded by anything related to children.
Diane Sawyer: Is there any other agreement that was made during the court proceedings or before it with the children who brought these allegations? We’ve heard there was another case— not the one the prosecutor brought up in court.
Michael: No.
Diane Sawyer: But you’re talking again about paying money to the accuser.
Michael: No, that’s not true... No, that’s not true... I think I’ve heard that everything was fine and there were no other accusers.
Diane Sawyer: Let me ask... I’m trying to figure out how to phrase it. I want to clarify this for you because you’ve been cleared of all accusations. But I hear people in the suburbs say, ”Look... here’s a man surrounded by things children like. Here’s a man who spends too much time with boys.“
Michael: That’s right.
Diane Sawyer: What could a 36-year-old man do with a 12-year-old boy—or a group of children—sleeping in his bed?
Michael: Okay, sure. When you say boys, it’s not just boys, and I’ve never invited only boys to come into my room. Stop it. That’s ridiculous. It’s a ridiculous question. But since people want to hear, I’m happy to answer it... I’ve never invited anyone into my bed. The children love me. I love the children. They follow me. They want to be with me. But anyone can come into my bed. If a child wants to come into my bed, they can.
Lisa Marie: I can say... I can... I can say... sorry... I’ve seen this. I’ve seen it many times. I’ve seen the children. I’ve seen it with the children over the past year. I’ve seen enough to understand how something like this could happen. It’s... you know, I understand...
Diane Sawyer: This isn’t part of being an adult... and you have a 2-year-old. A 2-year-old boy.
Michael (to Lisa): Don’t you want to finish your point?
Lisa Marie: Yes, yes—let me... let me... sorry.
Diane Sawyer: Okay.
Lisa Marie: I just want to say that I’ve seen these children. They don’t let Michael go to the bathroom without them running after him... and they don’t let him get out of their sight. So when he goes to bed, even I stand outside, and they go into the bedroom with him.
Diane Sawyer: But isn’t part of being an adult—or being in love with children—keeping them away from situations that create confusion for them? And again, we’re talking about something that was repeated constantly in a compressed way. When your son grows up, when he’s 12, will you let him do this?
Lisa Marie: You know what? If I didn’t know Michael, then no. But I know who he is and what he is. I know he isn’t like that. I know he has something for children. And I... go ahead... I’m sorry.
Diane Sawyer: I just want to... Is it over? Are you sure it won’t happen again? I think this is really the key point people want to know.
Michael: What’s over?
Diane Sawyer: That there won’t be more of this «sleeping in your house»—so people won’t be surprised anymore.
Michael: Nobody would be surprised if children spent the night in my house. Nobody would be surprised.
Diane Sawyer: Is it over? Are you... have you now decided to take care?
Michael: Take care of what?
Diane Sawyer: Just for the children—and for everything they’ve experienced.
Michael: No! Because it’s all... because it’s all moral and pure. I don’t even think that way. It’s not in my heart.
Diane Sawyer: So you, you do it again?
Michael: Do it again? What do you mean?
Diane Sawyer: I mean, do you let a child stay the night in your home again?
Michael: Of course! If they want to.
Lisa Marie: He...
Michael: It’s in the stage of purity and love, and it’s only innocent. Complete innocence. If you’re talking about sex, then the person you’re talking about isn’t me—it’s a crazy person. Go find the guy who’s out there in the streets. Because that’s not Michael Jackson. That’s not something I’m attracted to.
Diane Sawyer: Okay, we’ll take a break now. When we come back, «Elizabeth Taylor» will talk a little about the time she spoke with you and helped you quit your addiction to tranquilizer pills—and about what she saw back then.
Michael: Oh... «Elizabeth» is on the show!
Diane Sawyer: When we come back...
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«Commercial messages»
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Diane Sawyer: As we said, «Elizabeth Taylor» intends to talk a little about the time she came to see you when you were dealing with something that «Elizabeth» called a “great sadness”—she’ll talk. And she’s very... I think one of the things she was very upset with us about was that... she said, ”People always only talk about one side of someone’s personality. People never give them a chance for their moral virtues.“
Michael: That’s right.
Diane Sawyer: Especially because of what you give to the children... the money you give them.
Diane Sawyer: The interview begins like this.
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«A recorded interview with Elizabeth Taylor is shown»
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Elizabeth: When Michael is on tour, he goes to hospitals—without the press following him. Without anyone knowing. He disguises himself and does it. When he’s in the hospital, he takes off his disguise and the children realize, ”Wow... it’s Michael Jackson!“
Diane Sawyer: Is there anything you didn’t say to yourself—anything you read that everyone else had read—and say to yourself, ”Maybe it’s true”—maybe I didn’t fully understand who he was.
Elizabeth: Not at all; absolutely not.
Diane Sawyer: Never?
Elizabeth: Never. I know Michael’s heart. I know his intentions, his thoughts, his spirit. I’m not that cold. Especially not about him or the people I love.
Diane Sawyer: How did you decide to go to Singapore?
Elizabeth: He was my friend. He was alone. He was completely alone. And he only needed help. Nothing in the world could have hurt him more... if it had been planned... if they had plotted a murder, they couldn’t have hit him better. It was almost like his heart was breaking.
Diane Sawyer: «Elizabeth» said that if a friend brought tranquilizer pills to help him escape, she recognized it in that person and understood that he was using pills.
Elizabeth: Michael didn’t know what was happening to him. He was trying to ease his pain. But I was really scared because I’ve been in that situation, and I know how easy it is to get trapped by pills when you’re suffering—emotionally or physically.
Diane Sawyer: And he immediately understood he had to deal with this issue?
Elizabeth: Immediately, no... but he understood.
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«Back to the interview with Michael and Lisa»
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Diane Sawyer: Michael, during this time there were reports... that this pain was so big for you that you were actually hurting yourself. Is that true?
Michael: I never hurt myself. I love life more than I would ever hurt myself. I’m resilient. I’m tough-skinned. Never... never did I hurt myself.
Diane Sawyer: It made you...
Michael: My heart broke (touches his heart), but not in a way that hurt myself.
Diane Sawyer: Did it make you change completely? We talked about where you want to live. Did these accusations change your thoughts about living here? Are you thinking about living somewhere else?
Michael: It doesn’t matter to me anymore whether I stay in America. No... I don’t care. I’ll always have Neverland. But I’m sensitive to smoke and fog. You know, so I can’t tolerate smoke and fog. I want to go abroad. Honestly, I want to go abroad.
Diane Sawyer: Do you?
Michael: Yes.
Diane Sawyer: Where?
Michael: Oh, I haven’t decided exactly yet. Probably South Africa.
Diane Sawyer: To live there forever?
Michael: Maybe Switzerland.
Diane Sawyer: Lisa, do you support this decision too?
Lisa Marie: We can change the subject... wait... let’s address the truth that we don’t live in separate houses. Let’s start with that.
Michael: Yes, we don’t live separately... those who say these things are just dreaming.
Lisa Marie: It’s ridiculous. Where did you hide your hidden camera? Anyway... oh, I’m sorry... heh heh.
Michael: No, whenever you want to jump into the argument.
Lisa Marie: What? How do I feel about countries over there? I think those places are beautiful to see. I’d love to have a house there. We’ll be bothered all the time in an unbelievably intrusive way.
Michael: (laughs)
Diane Sawyer: Before we get away from the last two years—because I told you we want to show your views about the last two years—the clip you did with your sister is called ”Scream”... In that clip you use certain words... (Diane repeats those words for middle-aged people who can’t follow them)... the words you’ll hear are:
«Chaos, pounding, victimizing» and «Don’t push me»
Michael says, ”The events of the past two years made me scream.“
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«The Scream video is shown»
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Diane Sawyer: We have your wedding video. And I want you to talk to us a little about what we’re seeing right now. If our director, «Roger Goodman», wants to show it, we’ll take you back one year—right?
Lisa Marie: Yes.
Diane Sawyer: Close to a year ago.
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«The wedding ceremony film is shown»
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Lisa Marie: I can tell you that I look like an idiot.
Michael: You don’t look like an idiot. You look more like... no.
Lisa Marie: (laughs) Want me to tell you?
Diane Sawyer: Yes.
Lisa Marie: When we’re watching the film?
Diane Sawyer: Tell us.
Lisa Marie: When we’re watching...
Diane Sawyer: Tell us... we’re watching it now.
Michael (to Lisa): I’m saying
Lisa (to Michael): What?
Michael (to Lisa): I’m saying
Lisa (to Michael): Huh?
Lisa: In the middle, she asked Michael for an autograph. Okay, now our time is up.
Michael (to Lisa): How do I look?
Lisa (to Michael): Great.
Michael (to Lisa): Are you sure?
Lisa (to Michael): Yeah.
Diane Sawyer: Okay, Lisa, I know you want to talk about this. A lot of people are suspicious about this marriage. I’ve heard that this marriage was a Scientology plan (a religious cult), and that you’re a member of the Scientology church, which is said to have a strong influence on its members.
And that your husband—whom you divorced—was a supporter of this group and still has a lot of influence in your life. And that it’s all part of