Day 53 of the AEG trial: Katherine Jackson takes the stand
On this day, Marvin Putnam, the attorney for the company, questioned Katherine Jackson.
Katherine said that Michael covered all of her living expenses, including food, clothing, and shelter. Michael gave his mother cash, but Katherine did not keep records of the small payments.
Katherine said she had an assistant who had worked for her for 15 to 20 years. The assistant’s name was Janice Smith, and her office was in Encino. Katherine’s previous home was also in the same area. (Fans had become familiar with Janice Smith amid the Jackson family turmoil from last year. Katherine’s children—Jermaine, Janet, Rebbie, and Randy—separated their mother from Michael’s children and took them to another city. No one informed Michael’s children, and they were worried about the fate of their only legal guardian at the time, when they learned that their grandmother was missing. In a statement, Katherine said that Janice Smith had spoken with Michael’s children on her behalf and told her there was no problem. After returning, she said she had been unaware of all the issues, meaning Janice Smith had not given her accurate information about Michael’s children. However, Smith was not fired. Read more at here.)
In 2011, Katherine and Michael’s children moved from Hayvenhurst to a new home in a gated, protected area in Calabasas. Katherine said Hayvenhurst was under repair.
During the session, Katherine’s anger toward Marvin Putnam flared up. He refused to answer some questions. Putnam also tried to neutralize her attacks.
At first, Katherine ran into trouble when recalling that her assistant had worked for her for several years, but then she corrected the figure Putnam had stated. Challenging a plaintiff’s memory is a technique defense attorneys can use to question the accuracy of the plaintiff’s testimony.
Katherine said that Michael paid for her food and clothing, her home, and other matters of her life. Putnam asked whether she had kept track of the details of those accounts somewhere. Katherine said she did not write them down and that the money was a gift from her son Michael to her.
“When he gave me cash, it was his gift to me. I didn’t think I needed to report it to anyone.”
Putnam asked whether Katherine had a bank account in 2010 when she filed the lawsuit against AEG. Katherine couldn’t remember.
Putnam asked her about Michael’s financial problems. Katherine said Michael had plenty of money and many people worked under him. However, she said she had heard from people that Michael had financial trouble at the time of his death.
“They had been saying those things for 15 years. For years I heard that Michael was bankrupt, even though he wasn’t. People were taking his money—better to say they were stealing from him. Michael told me that people were making contracts on his behalf without permission, and they were being bribed.”
Katherine said she had never asked her son about whether he had financial problems because she didn’t believe that claim was true.
She then asked: “What does all of this have to do with my son’s death?”
Katherine said she didn’t want to get into the financial details of her son, and Putnam reminded her that it was her job to ask questions because Katherine had requested a large sum of money from the company (between $1.5 and $1.7 billion). He then asked her about that amount, and she said Putnam should speak with her attorneys about the damages she was seeking. Katherine’s lawyer objected that her client should not be questioned about an estimate of the damages.
Putnam asked Katherine whether she believed her son had no responsibility for his own death. The answer was yes.
In the past, Katherine didn’t know that Michael used propofol. When Putnam asked whether Katherine believed her son knew that Dr. Murray was injecting him with propofol, Brian Panish objected again. Putnam changed the question and asked whether Katherine remembered that MJ had asked Murray for propofol. Panish objected. Putnam eventually asked whether Katherine had heard in the 2011 trial that her son had asked Murray for propofol. Katherine said she had heard it and was surprised. However, she said she hadn’t heard that her son had made such a request to other doctors.
Katherine said about propofol: “Even if Michael had asked, Conrad Murray could have said no.”
Putnam asked whether Katherine would attend Murray’s court and whether she had helped the prosecutors of the case. Katherine refused to answer and said she couldn’t remember.
Putnam asked whether she believed Dr. Murray had been hired by her son. She said no.
Putnam: “You heard this testimony that MJ hired Dr. Murray in Las Vegas?”Katherine: “He hired a doctor for his children. I don’t know if it was Murray or not.”
Putnam asked whether she remembered that Prince, Michael’s son, testified that his father gave Murray bundles of cash.Katherine: “He didn’t say bundles. Michael paid him because Murray didn’t have money, and Michael felt sorry for him—not because he hired him.”
Before this trial, Katherine didn’t know about the cash payments. Putnam pointed out that Katherine had previously said she thought her son had hired Murray. Putnam wanted to show the jury a video of Katherine’s Dateline interview in which she had said that, but Panish objected and said she needed to review the interview. The judge told Putnam to postpone showing the interview until the lawyers reviewed it. The interview had taken place eight months before Katherine’s case was brought.
Katherine: “Maybe I said that once, and you’ll probably cite it. I didn’t know the facts at that time. I thought maybe Michael had hired him.”
Putnam also asked whether Katherine had said in that interview that Michael could have prevented his own death. Katherine said she couldn’t remember saying that, but in any case she doesn’t think that now, and Michael couldn’t have prevented his own death.
Putnam asked Katherine whether she remembered saying that her memory wasn’t very good.Katherine: “I didn’t say that. I didn’t say I can’t remember anything. I said I’m 83 years old and I don’t remember everything.”
Katherine said that based on what she had heard in court, the emails read, and the television interview of Randy Phillips, the CEO of the company who had said they hired Murray, she believes Dr. Murray was hired by the company.
Putnam asked whether Katherine knew that Murray stayed at Michael’s home six days a week. Prince had mentioned it in his testimony. Katherine said she couldn’t remember and had not discussed it with her grandchildren either. When answering Putnam, she was frowning. She said she knew nothing about Murray.
Putnam: “Do you blame Dr. Murray for your child’s death?”Katherine: “Of course.”Putnam: “Was he convicted in criminal court?”Katherine: “Yes.”Putnam: “Is he in prison?”Katherine: “I hope so.”
Putnam asked why Katherine dismissed her $100 million lawsuit against Murray. Katherine said because Murray has seven or eight children and is broke.
“I felt his children need him to take care of them. He has no money. His money should go to his children.”
Putnam then turned to Michael’s use of drugs and asked Katherine whether she had ever seen Michael under the influence of drugs. She said no.
Using a slang term, Putnam asked whether she had ever, during a phone conversation, felt that her son was taking drugs and was confused. Putnam used an English term with a literal translation of “being out of it,” and Katherine asked: “Out of what?” The audience laughed, and then Putnam explained the meaning of the term to Katherine. Katherine’s answer was no.
Katherine said she remembered the 2005 court case against Michael. She went to court every day. After the trial ended, Michael left the country. After returning, from 2006 to 2008 he lived in Las Vegas and never went back to Neverland. In 2009, he went to Los Angeles and lived in Carolwood until he died on June 25.
Katherine said that while Michael was in Vegas, some of her children told her that Michael was overdoing prescribed drugs. Katherine talked to Michael about it, and Michael denied it. This conversation happened when Katherine was preparing to leave Michael’s home. They went into a theater room near the entrance. Katherine told him she had heard he was taking prescription medications and that she didn’t want to hear that he had “gone away like the rest” because of those drugs.
Katherine: “I was his mother. I wasn’t surprised that he denied it. No child accepts something bad that their parents have heard about them. Like a child who goes out and disobeys their parents’ instructions and then denies it. He didn’t want his mother to worry.”Putnam: “If you knew he was denying it, why did you talk to him?”Katherine: “I’m not answering that question.”Putnam: “Why?”Katherine: “Because, in my opinion, it’s meaningless. I didn’t know he intended to deny it. He just didn’t want me to worry. I don’t think this is so important that you would interrogate me like this. My child—he respected his mother. He didn’t want me to see harm come from this.”Putnam: “He wasn’t a child; he was fifty years old.”Katherine: “Anyway, he was still my child. I was his mother, and he respected me. You just want to confuse me so you can get something out of my words and use it against me.”Putnam: “I just want to understand your testimony.”Katherine: “You understand my answer, but you keep asking anyway.”
Katherine then said she knew her son was taking medication because of his scalp burns and back pain, but she never believed he was abusing it.
Katherine also said that in 2002, when Michael was still in Neverland, at the request of Michael’s siblings—including Rebbie, Randy, and Janet—they all went to Neverland in a surprising move to stop him from using the drugs through mediation. Katherine said Michael was healthy and had no problem, but he was upset by their interference and by the fact that they thought he had a problem. They asked how he was, but Michael understood what their surprise was about, became upset with their behavior, and yelled at his sisters and brothers. Katherine said she felt ashamed that she had joined her children. Katherine said nothing else was said, and Michael didn’t deny anything because he was healthy.
Katherine said that in neither of the two times they intervened did she believe her son was abusing prescription drugs.
Katherine: “We saw that he was fine but he was upset, so we didn’t say anything else. It was kind of embarrassing. We pretended we had gone to Neverland to get together. No one talked about drugs.”Putnam: “Did you see him upset?”Katherine: “When I say he was upset, I mean I saw him.”Putnam: “When he got upset, did he say he wasn’t taking drugs?”Katherine: “He didn’t say that.”
After Putnam showed part of Katherine’s interrogation video to the jury, Katherine’s blood boiled: “Why are you doing this to me?”
In the video, Katherine said: “From the tone of his voice I knew he was upset. He said he wasn’t taking drugs.”
In court, Katherine explained: “Honestly, I don’t know whether he said that or not. I wasn’t trying to lie during the interrogation; I was just tired of you. You asked me the same question fifty times, just changing the wording.”
Panish read a statement the Jackson family had sent to People magazine in September 2007. At the time, there were rumors that Michael had become addicted and that his family was trying to take control of his business. It was also said that the family had once tried to stop Michael’s drug use through intervention. In the statement, the Jacksons said Michael wasn’t addicted and that they weren’t trying to control his affairs. The letter was signed by Katherine, Jackie, Marlon, Tito, and Jermaine. They also denied the family intervention, even though it had actually happened in 2002.
Katherine: “We didn’t intend to take control of his business and things like that. That’s a lie. Just because it was said in the newspapers doesn’t mean it’s true.”
Putnam asked Katherine: if what they said in the letter about family intervention wasn’t true, then why did Katherine sign it?Katherine: “I wanted the matter to end. I didn’t want to waste my time with local newspapers because I know all their efforts are to get money.”Putnam: “Is it true that Michael asked you to sign this statement?”Katherine: “I don’t remember my son asking me to do that.”
Putnam showed Katherine, exclusively, a video of Randy Jackson, Michael’s brother, in which he said Michael had asked their mother to sign the letter. Katherine rejected it and said seeing that film didn’t trigger anything in her mind. Putnam said he would call Randy to the stand.
Putnam asked Katherine whether she had been aware of a statement Michael had published in 1993 at the end of the Dangerous tour, in which he said he was ending the tour because of his dependence on painkillers. Katherine said she hadn’t heard anything about it before it was presented in this trial.
Putnam: “Were you aware that your son had gone through a drug withdrawal period?”Katherine: “I had heard that. Elizabeth Taylor was also connected to it; I don’t watch much TV. No one came to me to tell me anything. My children probably didn’t want me to know about it and worry.”Putnam: “Mrs. Jackson, you said on Friday that you close your ears to negative things. Didn’t you?”Katherine: “Maybe I said that, but I don’t remember. I don’t like to hear bad news.”
Putnam asked about Dr. Farshchian and the treatment he had prescribed for Michael’s drug dependency. In the 43rd day of court, it had been said that Dr. Farshchian had performed surgery on Michael in the early 2000s to treat Michael’s dependency on Demerol. The surgery involved implanting a Naloxone drug piece inside Michael’s abdomen, which prevented Demerol from taking effect.
Putnam showed Katherine the transcript of Farshchian’s testimony during his interrogation. Farshchian had said Katherine spoke with him because she wanted to be informed about the details of her son’s Demerol use. Katherine said she didn’t remember Dr. Farshchian and didn’t recall speaking with any doctor about Michael’s drug use.
Putnam: “Do you remember the testimony presented in court about the implanted piece in Michael’s abdomen for treating Demerol dependency?”Katherine: “I don’t know anything about that.”
Katherine also said she hadn’t seen the piece, because if she had, she would remember.
Putnam asked whether she remembered the interview with Oprah Winfrey in the fall of 2010. Katherine said yes. The interview was recorded one month after the AEG case began. Putnam then played part of the interview for the jury. In that interview, Katherine said she knew her son was taking prescription drugs after the Pepsi fire incident, but that was much earlier than the time Katherine heard her son had become dependent on those drugs. She also talked about their family intervention to prevent Michael from using drugs with Oprah. Katherine said that when Michael denied becoming dependent on drugs, she didn’t believe him.
In court, Katherine clarified her meaning: “I believed him and I didn’t believe him. I didn’t know what to believe.”Putnam: “Did you say in the interview that your son had become addicted to drugs?”Katherine: “I told Oprah that. But I’m telling you that Michael was taking pain medication. However, I don’t think he was overdoing it.”
Putnam asked about Louis Farrakhan, the leader of the Nation of Islam movement in America. In 2005, Michael used these people as guards for a limited time because of his brother’s closeness to Muslims, but he dismissed them soon after. Katherine said she had met Farrakhan, but couldn’t remember whether it was in Neverland or not.
Putnam asked whether, during the 2005 criminal trial, she had seen her son under the influence of drugs. She said no.
Katherine also said she had never discussed Michael’s health with his managers and attorneys or with company employees.
Michael had ended his collaboration with Frank DeLeo, his tour manager, in the 1980s, but during the preparation for the “This Is It” tour, he invited DeLeo back to work. Katherine said she had friendly conversations with DeLeo, but she wasn’t excited about his return.
Katherine: “They were bringing back the people Michael had fired. That upset me.”
Putnam pointed out that Michael had signed the hiring paperwork for DeLeo, then asked whether Katherine thought DeLeo had been hired by someone other than Michael. Katherine said she thought so, and that “Michael didn’t want him to come back.”
Michael and DeLeo had told Katherine that DeLeo had returned for the tour.
Putnam asked about the allowance that Janet, Katherine’s daughter, sent to her. He said that for several years before Michael’s death, she had been remitting $10,000 every month to her mother. At the same time, Katherine was also receiving money from Michael. Katherine said Janet’s payments were not monthly at first. Janet sent the money to Janice Smith’s office. Katherine said that after Michael died, she told Janet not to send her money anymore. Katherine’s living expenses today are covered by the Michael Foundation.
After Putnam, Brian Panish began questioning.
Panish: “Did Michael pay for everything in your life before his death?”Katherine: “Yes, he paid for everything.”Panish: “Did you rely on his financial support and depend on it to meet your living needs?”Katherine: “Yes.”
Panish: “Did Mr. Putnam ask you personal questions during his interrogation?”Katherine: “Yes. He asked whether my husband was beating me.”
Panish: “Does Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam have any connection to your child’s death?”Katherine: “No.”Panish: “Were you upset by Mr. Putnam’s question?”Katherine: “Yes.”
To neutralize Putnam’s attacks, Panish asked Katherine whether she uses a computer and email service. Katherine said she doesn’t know how to use computers. Panish asked whether Katherine is a private investigator, a lawyer, or an inspector. The answer was definitely no. Katherine said her highest education was a high school diploma. Panish then asked Katherine who she had hired to reveal the truth about her son’s death. She hired Panish’s firm.
Panish: “What did you do to follow up on this case?”Katherine: “I hired your company.”Panish: “For what?”Katherine: “To find out what really happened to my son.”
Katherine also said that after Michael’s death, she received no condolence messages from Gang Wer and Phillips, the company’s top executives. But Kenny Ortega had visited her.
Katherine said that before this trial, she didn’t know that Michael’s tour colleagues thought his condition was getting worse day by day.
Panish: “Did you know that your son had 60 days of insomnia?”Katherine: “No.”Panish: “Did you know that a tour employee told AEG that Michael’s condition was getting worse and worse right before his eyes?”Katherine: “No.”
Katherine said AEG hadn’t informed her about Michael’s condition. She cried and said:
“They could have called me and told me these things. He went to his father. My grandson told me that Michael was anxious and afraid. They stood there and watched him disappear. I know. If they had informed us, we would have acted immediately.”
Prince had testified in court that Michael had called his father, Joe.
Panish then focused on emails in which company employees described Michael as unusual and said meeting with him was “mor-mor” (creepy/tingly).
Ted Ficker, senior attorney at AEG’s parent company: “You meet that weird guy?”Shan Trul, a subordinate employee of his: “Apparently, yes. I don’t know what I should feel. It must be interesting, but it’s kind of creepy.”
Panish: “Did AEG ever tell you that Michael called him weird and creepy?”Katherine, crying: “No.”
Panish showed a picture of Michael in a T-shirt taken six days before his death in June 2009 and asked Katherine to look at it. The image, which had been shown many times in court, shows Michael as extremely thin, with his bones visible under his skin. Panish asked whether Katherine had ever seen Michael like this. Katherine didn’t want to look at the photo. At first she looked away, but then she saw the image and said she had never seen Michael like that. She also said she hadn’t seen the photo before the trial.
In the end, Panish asked about the $100 million lawsuit against Murray. Katherine said the figure was set by the prosecutor, not by her personally. She said she had asked the prosecutor to dismiss the lawsuit.
After that, Putnam took the stand again to show the jury the video of Katherine’s Dateline interview. In that interview, Katherine said Michael had hired Dr. Murray to take care of him, so his death was preventable.
Putnam asked whether Katherine, who was searching for the truth about her son’s death, had not asked Michael’s children about Dr. Murray. Katherine said she could have, but she didn’t want to discuss it with them.
However, Katherine had spoken with the nanny, Rose, who said Michael was very weak and needed help so he wouldn’t fall during practice due to his weakness.
The court had heard in earlier sessions about Michael’s worsening condition on June 19. On that day, Ortega had not allowed Michael to go on stage.
At the beginning of the session, Panish had asked Katherine whether the company executives who claimed to love Michael had sent condolence cards to her mother after his death. Katherine had denied it. This time, Putnam pointed out that AEG had arranged a memorial for Michael. Katherine said that she originally wanted to hold her son’s memorial at the LA Coliseum, which is bigger than the Staples Center, but the company told her that if the memorial was held at the Staples Center, they would not receive a rental fee from the Jackson family. That’s why the memorial was held at Staples. The Staples Center belongs to AEG.
After Putnam sat down, Panish stood up again and asked Katherine how many cards from strangers she had received after her son’s death. Katherine said she had received thousands of condolence cards from unknown people.
Panish played the video of Randy Phillips’ interview with Sky News. In that interview, conducted after Michael’s death, Phillips says the company had hired Murray.
Panish also asked Katherine whether Rose had talked to her about AEG. Katherine said yes, and that AEG had pressured Michael.
Panish then pointed out that at one point in court it had been claimed that Katherine rehired Chef Kai Chase so that she could testify for her in court. Katherine completely rejected the claim and said that Kai Chase had returned at the request of Michael’s children.
After that, Putnam left the stand again and, referring to Katherine’s interview shortly after Michael’s death in which she said Murray was hired by her son, compared it with Phillips’ interview in which he said they hired Murray. He raised the point that the information given in one of those two videos was wrong. Katherine said her statements in the interview were incorrect because at that time, when she didn’t know the facts, she thought Murray had been hired by Michael.
For the final round of questions, Panish stood up and said: “Who knows better who was hired by the company—the CEO, or you?”Katherine: “The company’s CEO.”
The questions ended there, and the judge told the jury that although the attorneys for Mrs. Jackson had not finished their work, today the first witness from the company’s legal team would take the stand.
After that, John Meglen was questioned on the stand by the company’s attorney, Jessica Stebbins Bina.
Meglen is a concert promoter and works for AEG Live. He is the president and CEO of Concerts West. Paul Gongwer sits in a management role and helps Meglen. Meglen, referring to his long history in the business world, said that in his job sometimes he feels like he’s dealing with animals!
Bina asked about the competition between AEG Live and Live Nation. Live Nation is the world’s number one company in concert promotion. Meglen said he doesn’t think being number one is necessarily a positive thing. He explained that it has to do with the distinction between quantity and quality.
Meglen had worked with Michael before the “This Is It” tour. He was an advisor to a Japanese company that held two Michael concerts in that country at Christmas in 1986. Meglen said he watched both shows and that they were fantastic. Marcel Avram was the concert promoter. Meglen said only half of the tickets for Michael’s concerts in Japan had been sold, and they covered the empty seats so they wouldn’t be seen. Bina asked whether Wikipedia, which wrote that all tickets had been sold, was wrong. Meglen said he doesn’t use that site as a source for his work.
(We’re not sure what these two were talking about. Wikipedia doesn’t have anything written about Michael’s 1986 shows in Japan. Michael’s “bad tour” concerts were also held in Japan in September and October 1987.)
Meglen said he had met Michael again in 2007 at the Wynn hotel in Las Vegas. The meeting was to introduce AEG to Michael. His attorney, Peter Lopez, his manager, Raymond Ben, and Paul Gongwer were present. Meglen confirmed what Gongwer had said in court about Michael’s reaction. When Michael saw Gongwer, he had said:
“Whenever I see Paul Gongwer, I know everything will go well.”
Michael also asked about Gongwer’s girlfriend, Brigitte. During this meeting, Gongwer and Meglen asked Michael to choose their company to run his comeback tours.
Meglen described Michael as: “Excited, great, full of energy, and tall. He had a firm handshake. He was attentive.”
Meglen said Gongwer immediately took over the leadership of the “This Is It” tour because he had a history of working with MJ.
Meglen also said that the cost of producing the tour is borne by the artist.
Meglen’s testimony ended there.
In the absence of the jury, Panish told the judge that Deborah Cheng had spoken with attorney Grace Ruamba, and the lawyer didn’t know where her client was. Panish was trying to bring the fugitive Grace to the witness stand.
Source: eMJey.com / CNN & AP & LA Times